April 25, 2022

Why Venus Rotates So Slowly And In The Wrong Direction

The Astronomy, Technology, and Space Science News Podcast.
SpaceTime Series 25 Episode 49
*Why Venus rotates so slowly and in the wrong direction
A new study suggests the planet Venus is gravitationally tidally locked to the Sun – and this explains...


The Astronomy, Technology, and Space Science News Podcast.
SpaceTime Series 25 Episode 49
*Why Venus rotates so slowly and in the wrong direction
A new study suggests the planet Venus is gravitationally tidally locked to the Sun – and this explains why it’s so strange compared to the Earth.
*Perseverance arrives at its primary target on the red planet
NASA’s Mars Perseverance rover has finally arrived at its ultimate destination on the red planet – an ancient dried up river delta in Jezero Crater that may provide evidence of life on another world.
*Humanity’s latest proposed Beacon in to the Galaxy
Scientists have developed a new proposal to send a greeting from the people of planet Earth out into deep space – letting the universe know we’re here.
*The Science Report
Study shows that getting vaccinated after recovering from COVID-19 gives stronger immune response.
A new study is warning that micro plastics are finding their way into the food chain.
The most common injuries for riders of e-scooters.
Skeptic's guide to the science of ghosts
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The Astronomy, Space, Technology & Science News Podcast.

Transcript

Stuart: This is Spacetime series 25, episode 49 for broadcast on the 26 April 2022. Coming up on spacetime, why Venus rotates so slowly and in the wrong direction as Mars Perseverance Rover arrives at its primary target on the Red Planet and humanity's latest proposed beacon to the Galaxy. All that and more coming up. I'm Space time. Welcome uh to Spacetime with Stewart Gary. A new study suggests that Venus is gravitationally tidally locked to the sun, and that explains why it's so strange compared to the Earth. The findings, reported in the Journal Nature Astronomy, may help to address some of the many questions about Earth's sister planet, which you need answering. Venus and Earth are almost exactly the same size and were formed in the same part of the solar system out of the same materials and under similar conditions. Yet while the Earth is a warm, wet world capable of supporting a vast array of life in all its many wondrous forms, Venus is the nearest thing to hell in our solar system. It has a surface temperature of over 460 degrees Celsius that's hot enough to melt lead. And a thick cloud cover crushes down the planet's dense carbon dioxide atmosphere, giving it a surface pressure 100 times greater than that at sea level on Earth. Uh, when it does rain on Venus, it rains sulfuric acid, with metal snow falling on the mountaintops. And finally, the planet rotates backwards, with the sun rising in the west and sitting in the east. And so slowly, a Venusian day lasts longer than its year. Some scientists speculate that were at night for the super fast moving atmosphere on Venus, Earth's, uh, planet wouldn't rotate at all. Instead, Venus would be totally locked in place, always facing the sun with the same side in the same way that the same side of the Moon always faces the Earth. The gravity of a large object in space can stop a smaller object from spinning. It's a phenomenon known as, uh, gravitational tidal locking. And if that is what's happening on Venus, scientists argue that the atmosphere needs to be a far more prominent factor in, uh, studies of both Venus and other planets. The studies lead author Stephen King from the University of California, Riverside, says people think of an atmosphere as a thin or a separate layer on top of the planet, something that has minimal interaction with the solid planet beneath back. Cain says Venus's powerful atmosphere teaches science that it's far more integrated with the planet and that it affects absolutely everything, even how fast the planet rotates. Venus takes 243 Earth days to rotate once on its axis, but its atmosphere circles around the planet every four Earth days. Extremely fast winds cause the atmosphere to drag along the surface of the planet as it circulates, slowing its rotation while also loosening the grip of the Sun's gravity. And slow rotation, in turn, has dramatic consequences for the sweltering Venezian climate, Keane points out. Venice is incredibly alien. One reason for the heat is that nearly all of the Sun's energy absorbed by the planet is soaked up by, uh, the Venetian atmosphere never reaching the surface, he says. This means that a Rover with solar panels like the one NASA sent to Mars simply wouldn't work there. And the Venezuelan atmosphere also blocks the Sun's energy from leaving the planet, preventing cooling or the pooling of liquid water on the surface and giving the planet its runaway greenhouse effect. Cain says it's unclear whether being partially tidally locked contributes to the greenhouse state, a condition which ultimately renders the planet uninhabitable as we know it. But, he says not only is um it important to gain clarity on this question to understand Venus, it's also important for understanding exoplanets likely to be targeted in future NASA missions. Most of the planets likely to be observed by the James Webb Space Telescope are very close to their stars, even, uh, closer than Venice's to the sun. Therefore, they are also likely to be tightly locked. And since humans may never be able to visit these exoplanets in person, making sure computer models account for the effects of tidal locking is critical. This is spacetime still to come, Perseverance arrives at its primary target on the Red Planet and humanity's latest proposed beacon to the Galaxy. All that and more still to come of space time. Nasa's Mars Perseverance rogue has finally arrived at its ultimate destination on the Red Planet, an ancient, dried up River Delta in Jesuit Crater that may, uh, provide evidence of life on another world. The car size six wheeled Rover, which arrived on Mars in February last year, has been exploring geological features to the south and west of its landing site to investigate and sample several of the deepest and potentially oldest accessible geological units in Jesuit Crater, the city unit, which means amongst the sand, in the Navajo language, and the crated floor fractured rough along the way. Perseverance, guided by its tissue box size ingenuity helicopter, has collected eight samples of rock, core, and regolith for eventual return to Earth. Subsequent joint missions between NASA and the European Space Agency will send spacecraft back to Mars to collect these sealed samples from the surface and return them to Earth for more indepth analysis. After visiting Seaton, the credits for all fractured rough, Perseverance undertook a record breaking 31 Martian day, or sold dash across some five kilometres the Red Planet's landscape, retracing its route back to its landing site before heading northeast around the room of a crater before turning northwest to ultimately reach a point dubbed Three um Forks by mission managers because of the spot where three different route options to the Delta merge. Uh, from Three Forks, Perseverance can access geological locations around the base of the ancient River Delta, containing sediment washed down from further upstream billions of years ago. The river will then ascend the Delta by driving up, uh, a Valley wall to the northwest, collecting samples as it explores the ancient and now dried up river channel. Head of NASA's science mission director At Thomas Sabukin says the Delta at Jesu Crater promises to be a veritable geological feast in one of the best locations on Mars to look for signs of past microbial life. He says its exploration tops the Perseverance science team's wish list because all the fine grain sediments deposited at its base long ago is the uh mission's best bet for finding preserved remnants of ancient microscopic life. One goal of this excursion is to scope out the best route to ascend the Delta, which rises about, uh, 40 meters above the crater floor. Right now, there are two options, which look traversable uh. One is called Cape Nutshack, the other Hawksbill Gap. Now, at the moment, the science team are leaning towards Hawksbill Gap because of the shorter drive needed to reach the top of the Delta. But that may change as the Rover acquires additional information about the two options. Whichever route Perseverance takes to the Plateau atop the Delta, the team will perform detailed science investigations, including taking rock samples on the way up and then turn around and do the same thing on the way back down again. Current plans will see the Rover collect around eight samples for eventual return to Earth during the journey, which should take about half an Earth year to complete. Now, after completing that descent, according to this current plan, Perseverance will then again ascend the Delta, this time probably going by the alternate route, another excursion, which will take about half an Earth year. Remember, this tells us the real reason why Perseverance was sent to Jesro Crater. Scientists will look for signs of ancient life in the rocks at the base of the Delta, rocks they think were once mud on the bottom of Lake Jesu. Higher up in the Delta, they'll examine the uh Sands and rock fragments, which have come from upstream, perhaps originating many kilometers away. Perseverance is kicking off its new science campaign more than a month earlier than planned, thanks to the Rover's ability to autonomously navigate Jesuit craters, sandpits craters, boulders, and fields of sharp rocks. The Rover's artificial intelligence assisted auto navigation capability, or Autonav, assessed some 10,744 navigation images during the road trip and commanded the Rover to halt and turn uh in place to negotiate different surface hazards some 55 times. And all that in just its first year of operations. This is spacetime. Still to come, humanity's latest proposal to send a message out into the Galaxy. And later in the Science report, a new study warns that microplastics are now finding their way to the human food chain in ever greater numbers. All that and more still to come on space time. Scientists have developed a new proposal to send a greeting from the people of Earth out into deep space, letting the universe know we're here. According to the Drake equation, our Galaxy alone could be host to thousands of intelligent alien civilizations. Put simply, the Drake Equation looks for N. That is, the number of civilizations in the Milky Way Galaxy whose electromagnetic emissions are detectable by us. N equals R. That, uh, is the rate of formation of stars suitable for the development of intelligent life per year. Times FP. The fraction of those stars with planetary systems. Times Me. The number of planets per solar system with an environment suitable for life. Times fail. The fraction of suitable planets on which life actually appears. Times Fi. The fraction of life bearing planets on which intelligent life emerges. Times FC. The fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that produces detectable signs of their existence. Timezelle the average length of time in Earth years. Such civilizations are around to produce such signs. Now, in reality, the Drake Equation is nothing more than a bunch of estimates. The value of each of which are totally arbitrary, limited only by, uh, your imagination. But it does raise the question of whether or not we're alone in the universe. Now, if it turns out we're not alone in the universe, you've then got to ask yourself another question. Is it a good idea to let the local Klingons and Kardassians nowhere here? See, this goes against the advice of the late physicist and cosmologist Stephen Hawking, who warned, we only need to look at our own history to teach us how more primitive civilizations tend not to do very well once they encounter more advanced civilizations. You only need to look at the lessons learned from European colonization of Africa, South America and Australia. But do we learn lessons at all? Nasa's twin Pioneer spacecraft, launched in 72 and 73, were each fitted with the first messages of humanity specifically designed to travel beyond our, uh, solar system. A pair of plaques depicting a line drawing of a man and a woman. We knew the definitions of those back then and symbols meant to show where the spacecraft originated. Then, in 1977, the twin Voyager spacecraft, under a program initiated by Carl Sagan, were equipped with Gordon records containing far more information, including music, animal sounds, and spoken Greetings from the people of Earth in 55 languages. Of course, ever since, humans have been broadcasting their signals have been traveling across space at the speed of light. So, theoretically, if Et is a powerful enough receiver, they could be tuning into old episodes of I Love Lucy. Or, worse still, seeing images of Hitler opening the Berlin Olympics. Back in 1974, astronomers used the giant, nowgone 305 metercebor radio telescope in Puerto Rico. To send out a message deliberately telling anyone listening about us. That message used binary code to convey information about humanity's base ten counting system, common, important elements, and a map of the solar system to let people know where we are. The Are SIBO message was sent towards a globular star cluster called M 13, located some 250 lightyears away. So it's still got some distance to go now. To Mark the 50th anniversary of that 1974 erasebo message, a bunch of scientists from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, have submitted a proposal on the pre pressed physics website Archive.org to send out a new message. This new greeting would encode information in binary and describe basic maths, physics and biology, including descriptions of DNA, amino acids and glucose. It would also contain a map showing the way to our Milky Way Galaxy and how to get to our solar system. Using globular star clusters in the Milky Way as signposts rather than the pulsars used in the original 1974 map. The new directions show exactly where the Earth is located and provide details about the planet's composition and atmosphere. Everything you'd need to know, really, and to convey a temporal component, the authors would use a characteristic of the neutral hydrogen atom found in distalar gas. It's the most common element in the universe. Neutral hydrogen can enter a high energy state after colliding with other atoms or electrons and then transition back to a lower energy state in a spin flip transition after around 10 million years. At this timing, providing a universal unit of time for communicating exactly how long after the Big Bang. The message was sent. Astronomer Brad Tucker from the Australian National University says if the new hello message is sent, the current target is a ring of stars about 130 light years from the Milky Way Galactic Center.

Guest: The idea, and this is all from, uh, a paper that was recently written and put on what we call Archive. This is the pre publication server, so it hasn't gone through full referee process yet. But the idea is, well, we have a lot new, more powerful radio telescopes and facilities, and with further upgrades, they have the potential to release a lot of power, essentially energy. And we also have updates and advances in computer algorithms and things like that. So why don't we take advantage of it and use it to send a very powerful radio signal to the heart of the Milky Way. So the idea here is that you aim it towards the center of the Galaxy, where you're likely to encounter lots of stars and planetary and stellar systems along the way and increase your chances of it going by, uh, or near are seen by some potentially habitable intelligent civilization.

Stuart: If it exists, would that be the right direction? Doesn't everything we know about planetary science tell us that maybe we should be looking more in our, uh, own neighborhood or further out towards the outskirts of the Galaxy?

Guest: You're right. So the Arecibo message happened in 74, I think it was 74, almost 50 years. And that's kind of the inspiration for this. And that was done with the Are SIBO dish in Puerto Rico, which is now no longer, uh, working. That's right. Uh, pieces, unfortunately. And it was directed at a cluster, um, of stars that was, I think it was 12,000 light years away, something like that. So, cluster of stars in the Milky Way, but a densely populated, um, area of stars. At the time, the thinking was, well, keeping in mind, a in the 70s, we had never even seen another planet around another star. That first discovery was back in the 90s. And now what we know about clusters is they actually are very poor places to host planets. So that wasn't maybe the best message. But, yes, nowadays it's kind of thinking, all right, what can we do it? So here the argument is you're right, we do know where the likelihood of planets lie there in less dense populated areas of stars and clusters. So more towards the arms of a Galaxy rather than the core of the center here. I think their argument is just quantity, that if you're looking towards the center of the Milky Way, while other civilizations are likely to be looking at that as well. So it's not just anything that we come in the past, but it's a popular place to look, because if you're intelligent, of course you're studying astronomy. You're looking towards the densest part of the Galaxy, which happens to be towards the center.

Stuart: I guess the one question we should be asking isn't just, could we? But should we?

Guest: And this is kind of the point of discussion that a lot of people are having now. What, uh, is the purpose? What is the benefit? What are the consequences? Uh, this is, I think, a very important question. When we talk about aliens and, uh, I mean, in the truest sense, not just intelligent life, but microbes, malting, bacteria, I think it's important to understand and investigate. Hopefully we find something someday. But we want to make sure we're doing it in the best possible practices. And I think a lot of people have pointed out that if we do send messages in the space and they are intelligent civilizations that can pick it up again, we don't know if they exist. There's a likelihood they do. We don't fully know what that likelihood is, but at some number. Well, we kind of know what happens when two civilizations come together, especially if one is very different from the other. It doesn't always end well, and we don't want to be on the short end of the stick, as a lot of people point out. I also think there's another just point of, well, when we're broadcasting these messages, even if something is 200 lightyears away, it would still take 200 years to get there. And none of this really benefits us. Right? Uh, if we're sending these messages out, it's not like we're going to get a reply tomorrow. If there is a reply, it is in hundreds to thousands to tens of thousands of years. The benefit one sees, I think, is if there is an intelligent civilization, they are probably searching for intelligent life just like we are and at least that we're helping them. And they're searching and exploring of the universe.

Guest: If the universe is populated by more than just life on Earth.

Stuart: Why hasn't there been any evidence at all for it as yet? Not even the slightest Tinkle.

Guest: And you're right, and he said lots of people have asked us, dating all the way back famously to Enrico Fermi.

Stuart: And this is something we grapple with paradox, isn't it?

Guest: Exactly. That's right. And this is something we grapple with. And I think it's very true. And this is why I think the exploration of the solar system is so important to becoming bigger and bigger, because at the very least, if we find some sort of bacteria, simple life, even simply complex life, plants or fish, I don't know, it at least starts us on that path. Because you're right, we have zero evidence any of this exists. And this is kind of a big problem. And as with the Fermi Paradox, there's lots of what we call solutions ranging from faces just very big, so we may never find it. We're pretty confident intelligent life doesn't exist in our solar system. Doesn't mean maybe it didn't even exist in the past on Mars or Venus, but not now. It could be ranging to we're in quarantine to a giant Zoo experiment. There's all sorts of ideas, the solution of the Fermi paradox. And so it does raise the question again, why you put the effort into this when? Well, we're not even really sure they exist. And I think it's a lot like that original message in the 74 that receive a message. We didn't even know planets existed at that time. We just thought it was likely, even though we've never saw it. So people broadcasted their message now we do, and we know there's thousands of planets. So maybe in 50 years we'll know that life exists and we still won't. I don't know. And I think this is the interesting intersection now that we're at with Astrobiology in the truest sense, understanding life in space. There's a lot of things we know. There's a lot of things we don't know. There's a lot of things we know we don't know. There's also a lot of things we don't know we don't know. And it's a very weird world, and I think a very important world. And at least these sorts of things get the public discussing what it means and what we should. Because if we are doing something as part of the planet, we're not doing it as part of NASA or the US or even North America. You're doing it on behalf of Earth, quite literally in the truest sense. And so properly, I think we want to make sure that those actions are arising at a point where most of the world supports, uh, it. And I think we need to have those discussions more before we start launching into a lot of these big new projects.

Stuart: It's called blue sky science, and it's called that for a reason.

Guest: Because if people don't do that, I think most of the inventions we have today wouldn't have occurred.

Stuart: And we wouldn't be living the way we are. Getting back to what you were saying earlier about finding life in our solar system right now, the Mars Perseverance Rover and the Ingenuity helicopter Are searching for, uh, life on the red planet. If we find life on Mars Or evidence of past life on Mars And it's similar to what we've found on Earth, that wouldn't really tell us much Because Mars and Earth have been swapping rocks for years, millennia. But if we find that on Europa or, uh, in the seas of Enciliadus, that's a different story then, isn't it?

Guest: It is. And you're right. I think there's a little bit of answer in all of it. As you said, if it's similar to Mars, then we at least know, hey, that's not surprising, but it really just goes to show that it's actually Earth. That's not special. And we kind of think this anyways, but it confirms we're actually not that special. It is the inner solar system, like Mars and even further out to Venus. If you find it, as you said on Europa and Salad Titan, any of these worlds around Jupiter and Saturn that we think could be rich in potential life, that is a very different system, a very different ballgame. Again, if it's similar, well, then there's something to that. Is it because of the ingredients of the solar system, or is it something that happened in the solar system? If they're different, that is also exciting, because then it's telling us, well, there's lots of different ways and ways of forming life, and I guess it's the same with Mars. If we find evidence for past life on Mars And it does look different to Earth, I think that's very exciting, because why is it so different in the evolution? And I think this is almost the interesting challenge we have in these questions. We don't even know what path in the road to take. We're kind of at the intersection. We have lots of ways forward, and we at least need that first inkling to know what is the next path in the next steps. And that has to be in exploring some of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. Even if no matter what we find on Mars, I think we still have to do that, because if you said how closely related in both composition, formation and evolution, Earth and Mars and to some extent mean it has just with Mars.

Stuart: I think the real kicker would be if we find evidence of past life on Mars.

Guest: But the proteins have the wrong handedness.

Stuart: That would be huge.

Guest: Oh, it would it would transform not just our understanding of space, but biology and the truth. And that, I think, is so cool, because you really are opening up the potential for a generally whole new field of science and combination of taking the idea of Astrobiology to a whole new level and putting into picture that big question. Right. Exactly how did Earth life start? Was it a comet? Was it a rock from Mars? Was it something different? The various ideas that have been put forth, it would really start to put those pieces together of what it may be. As you said, if it's very similar to that on Earth, that gives stronger evidence that, yeah, maybe we did come from Mark or vice versa or some sort of commonality.

Stuart: Okay, you've told me about the science.

Guest: You've told me what other people have thought.

Stuart: What do you think?

Guest: I am firmly in the camp of I believe life exists. And again, this is bacteria, simple cells, that sort of thing. I think it exists the solar system. I think it's actually, um, probably pretty common, the intelligent life question. I like to frame it into the complex life question because humans, we are a very self centered species. Right. We always ask the question, let's find things like us. Why don't we ask the question, let's find things like dinosaurs. They were on the planet for longer. There's a lot more species of them. Statistically, uh, they're more likely to be dinosaurs in the space rather than humans. We just think an awful lot of ourselves. Now, that's not wrong, that's not unsurprising, but that's reality. And I think complex life, you know, big things probably do exist. I hope intelligent life exists. But I think in the old likelihood, because of how big space is in the small amount of time we are on for a planet, it's just unlikely we're going to get that answer anytime soon. As sad as that is, I don't think and not even soon in generations that is going to miraculously pop up and we say, hey, we found evidence of intelligent life, unless it's on Mars or in our solar system. I think because of the vastness, unfortunately space, that's going to be the limiting factor and always be this question we have. But I do think we'll get an answer at least. Yes, life does exist somewhere else again in our solar system and what it may look like. That's really exciting. That's what I want to know. And I always like to end on this. I don't actually worry about aliens there's again, this discussion that we should be worried about contacting, uh, them. I don't, because I think it's a unlikely and B I actually worry more that not that life exists, but that we are the only place that has life, if we are the only place that any sort of life has ever evolved with. That I think is a bigger scarier answer than the one young life is just coming.

Stuart: That's Brad Tucker, an astronomer with the Australia National University. And uh, this is space time.

Speaker UNK: Uh.

Stuart: And time. Then to take a brief look at some of the other stories making using science uh this week with a science report. A new study has shown that getting vaccinated after recovering from Covad 19 results in a substantially stronger immune response. The findings, reported in the Journal Clinical and Transitional Immunology, are based on tested blood samples taken from patients over a period of seven months in order to examine the antibody and Tcell responses to the vaccine and how long they last. The authors found that Tcell responses, antispike IgG responses and neutralizing antibodies were all enhanced in the 118 covadine recovered group who were vaccinated compared to the 289 vaccinated samples from people without previous COVID-19 infection. Over 6.2 million people have uh now been killed by the covert 19 coronavirus since it first escaped from Wuhan, China, but the World Health Organization says the true death toll is likely to be at least double that amount, with over half a billion confirmed cases globally. Meanwhile, a study reported in the Lancet Medical Journal claims the most accurate modeling so far suggests that more than 18.2 million people have now uh been killed by the virus since it first appeared back in the area surrounding the Wuhan Institute of Virology Logy back in September 2019. A new study is warning that microplastics are finding their way up into the food chain. The findings, reported in the Journal Science of the Total Environment, show that broken down microplastics have been found in viable concentrations in blue muscles and water within the intertidal zone at some of Southern Australia's most popular, as well as some of the more remote beaches. The authors from Flinders University say the latest results mean that microplastics are now finding their way up into human food supplies, including both wild caught and ocean farm fish and seafood sourced from once pristine Southern Ocean and Gulf waters in South Australia. A new study has found that arm and clavicle fractures are the most common injuries for riders of Escooters. The findings, reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association, are based on a study in Finland which showed there was an almost 2% chance of injured riders requiring admittance to an emergency Department. The authors conducted an observational study of 331 patients who were treated for Escooter related injuries and analyzed data from the two escorted companies operating in the area. Their study revealed that the most common injuries were to the distal radius and to the clavicle, and there was a 1.8% chance of an injury occurring on an Escooter that would require admittance to a hospital emergency Department. They also found that 44% of injuries that required treatment occurred between midnight and 06:00 a.m. A new book has just been released claiming to provide a scientifically critical analysis of ghosts in the supernatural. However, Tim Mendel from Australian Skeptics warns that in reality, most of the books 247 pages are simply telling ghost stories with very little ink devoted to actually looking at any science.

Stuart: There's a uh, recent book that came out which reckons are connecting history with science to uncover the greatest ghost stories ever told. Elements of the haunting. Yeah, it's been promoted as a serious scientific appraisal of ghosts and paranormal events and that sort of stuff. Heavily criticized because the trouble is what a lot of these ghost researchers and people consider science, if not very good science or scientific practice.

Stuart: Why the camel year?

Stuart: Yes, all those issues, they don't make sense at all. But also a lot of the people's idea what science is in ghost typing is having a few bits of electronic equipment and click and that sort of thing that are often just pathetic, joking things. They really make noises and stuff.

Stuart: But the users of readers and things like this.

Stuart: All that sort of stuff. Yeah. Picking up ghost presence, which is they're pointing out is probably the mobile phone in your pocket, which is also creating a problem, an interference pattern or something. There's a lot of tech out there which you can buy. You can buy it in electronic stores and things. Often it has another use, which is a valid use. But applying it to ghost hunting might be drawing a long bow on these things. But therefore, this book that sort of talks about scientific elements in ghost hunting, et cetera, is often sort of overstating and is practical with the industry itself, that it's overstating scientific validity of the ghost hunting process. Now, most of the TV shows you say about ghost hunting and they come and they go and are generally rubbish, quite frankly. I mean, apart from they are literally made up because they actually promote hauntings, which don't exist. And participants in the show have actually been, have spoken out in the past, mostly on the ghost hunting program, which is fake. When I say go back and do it again and make it look scarier, they are literally fake ghost hunters with fake hauntings and fake circumstances. Unfortunately, even most of the ghost hunters would say most of the people who do go out and they don't make a great living out of it would say that most of those TV shows.

Stuart: Et cetera, are phony the Discovery channels, lying to us.

Stuart: I'm sorry about that. The idea that there's scientific underpinning, as much as a lot of the ghost hunters are quite genuine outside of the TV shows where the real ghost hunters you meet and you talk to and I talk to quite a few over the years. They're nice enough people, and they probably genuinely believe, or sometimes it's handy to believe if they're taking people on tourism stuff. But most of them say, yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there which is shocking. We know it's not that some of them are very good evidence that they believe anyway, and they're trying to find evidence for ghosts, um, whatever. And they're trying to do it in a provable way, in the same way that a lot of UFO believers are trying to actually prove scientifically, or at least with some sort of evidence, the existence of UFOs and ghosts, which is good, but you've got to do it properly. And there's a lot of aspects of science and scientific method which is not well understood by a lot of these people. They just think if I get clicked on a machine that's evidently say, no, no, you got to look at the circumstances, you've got to repeat it for a start. And when you're dealing with ghosts, it's pretty difficult to do that. I do have someone who talks to me who can reckon he can summon UFOs.

Stuart: All right.

Stuart: Yeah, some people apparently can do it all the time. He sent me some videos.

Guest: Does he prove it?

Stuart: I'm having a test at the moment by some UFO experts around the world in this new study of these supernatural phenomena. There are a number of chapters ghost Science Ethics Protocols and Standards Technology in the Paranormal, which is sort of just alluded to there.

Stuart: I take it they go through this piece by piece trying to establish some credibility to go science, if you like. But most of the stuff, they're really good, paying lip service to these things. I'm treating it pretty quickly. For a book that's supposed to be about 247 pages, it only actually gives about 34 pages devoted to any foot form of science. And the rest of it is all just anecdotal evidence. Isn't this a great ghost story? And the trouble with ghost stories is like the same. I feel trouble with unknown creatures, the evidence for yowis and Yetis and that sort of stuff is that each individual claim and evidence is like two or three out of ten. By and large, they're not very good. The film is not very good. The photos are not very good. The evidence is not very good. You give it two or three out of ten. And the trouble is that people think if I get a lot of two or three out of ten, it makes it ten out of ten.

Guest: It doesn't.

Stuart: It makes a lot of two or three out of ten. And they're all the same. After a while, when you get a lot of two or three think, well, it's not going to get any better than this at a very mediocre or poor evidence and decided to think, well, maybe it's not there at all and maybe the standard is just poor evidence and you have to leave it at that. A lot of poor evidence is not good evidence. It's just a lot of poor evidence. And the same with the ghosts and the UFOs and the unknown creatures and that sort of stuff. Sadly, as much as we'd love to believe them as lots of their fun, a lot of things are intriguing.

Stuart: I desperately want to see Bigfoot being real.

Stuart: I've been to lock this three times. Still haven't seen it the closest I've been with a truck selling monster burgers which worried me. I caught it and chopped it up. It's supposed to be a protected species, isn't it?

Stuart: If it's real, well.

Stuart: Probably is, whether it exists or not. But I can't see any harm in lockdown. Monsters or big feet can't see any great harm in just standard flying sources either. And ghosts would probably have a bigger implication for your everyday life than a lockdown sponsor. Ghosts have an implication of life after death.

Stuart: So that's pretty big concept that's Tim Mendom from Australian skeptics and that's the show for now. Space time is available every Monday, Wednesday and Friday Through Apple podcasts, itunes, Stitcher Google podcast, podcasts and Spotify Acast, Amazon Music Bytes.com, SoundCloud, YouTube, your favorite podcast download provider. Um and from spacetime with Stuart Gary.com. Spacetime is also broadcast through the national science foundation, um on science owned radio and on both iHeartRadio and tune in radio and you can help to support our show by visiting the Spacetime Store for a range of promotional merchandising goodies or by becoming a spacetime patron which gives you access to triple episode commercial free versions of the show as well as lots of bonus audio content which doesn't go to air access to our exclusive Facebook group and other rewards. Just go to Spacetime with Stewart Gary.com for full details. And if you want more space time, please check out our blog where you'll find all the stuff we couldn't fit in the show as well as heaps of images, news stories, loads of videos and things on the web I find interesting or amusing. Just go to Spacetime with Stuartgarry Tumblr.com that's all one word and that's Tumblr without the e. You can also follow us through at Stewart Gary on Twitter, at Spacetime with Stuart Gary on Instagram, through our Spacetime YouTube channel and on Facebook. Just go to Facebook.com spacetime with Stuartgarry and spacetime is brought to you in collaboration with Australian Sky and telescope magazine. Your window on the universe you've been listening to space time with Stuart Gary. This has been another quality podcast production from Bitesz.com.

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Tim Mendham

Editor

Editor with Australian Skeptics